Could we have a page where we discuss and analyze great songs, and why they work?

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Feb 05, 2018, 02:36 PM

I think http://www.cdbaby.com sells download cards. The same music you might put on a CD, accessible with the purchase of the card (like a credit card). You log in and download. Sell whatever they want to buy, in whatever format they want to buy it in. If they want your picture, sell it. Hats, t-shirts, Lyric sheets, sheet music, your hot wings recipe, vinyl, CD, download card, house party, live play anywhere.

I think they also sell CD-Duplication machines, for about the same price as a 1000 CD’s, last time I checked. If you are a prolific writer, or have an extensive catalog you can package into CD’s, you might invest in the machine so you can produce as many or as few CD’s as you need to market as another line of revenue. Rather than having 992 in the closet because you only sold 8.

[ Edited: 05 February 2018 02:39 PM by Gary E. Andrews]

There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? http://www.garyeandrews.com

 
     
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Gary E. Andrews Joined Apr 12, 2005
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Feb 05, 2018, 03:00 PM
joel fass - 05 February 2018 10:54 AM
Deacon - 04 February 2018 09:16 PM

... I wonder if you could sell the download with the cover art, lyrics, and song in video form at a reasonable price?

Best wishes,

Speak soon,

I wonder about the same thing, b/c I have my own small catalog for purchase.

If you can’t beat ‘em join ‘em——and MAYBE pay a fraction of your bills with your art…

I really don’t see why iTunes, Spotify, etc. aren’t doing this. You can create reviews at iTunes and create your “Artist’s Profile” on Spotify. It would be pretty easy for them to allow the artist or publisher to upload a virtual album cover - not just the cover art, but the whole vinyl record cover and sleeve experience with lyrics, liner notes, etc. That smell of a newly purchase LP might not be possible….yet :)

 
     
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Gavin Sinclair Joined Dec 02, 2014
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Feb 05, 2018, 03:08 PM
joel fass - 05 February 2018 07:15 AM
Gary E. Andrews - 04 February 2018 11:55 AM

Here’s July Garland singing “Somewhere Over The Rainbow”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSZxmZmBfnU

Note that THE Hook, the title line, is the first line in each Verse. Note also the simplicity. I think she, or the Songwriters, get it done in just over two minutes.

There is a musical, Melodic, completeness in each Verse. I’m not sure but I think the last note in each Verse is the same as the first note.

Note the completeness of thought in the long sentences that ARE the Verses.

Somewhere-
O-ver The Rainbow,
way up high,
there’s a-
land that I heard of
once in a lullabye.

Somewhere-
O-ver The Rainbow,
skies are blue,
and the-
dreams that you dare to dream (longer line than same line in Verse 1, just by a few syllables/notes)
really do come true. (Melody varies slightly from that of last line in Verse 1. It still works.)

(Now, rather than repeating that Musical Movement, now heard twice, comes a Change, which refreshes listener interest with a variant Melody, and cadence. Since I would call the opening line of each Verse a Refrain-Type Chorus, this next Movement constitutes a Bridge, a literal method of crossing from the Repetition of Verses over a point where the human attention span begins to break down. Brief, with pivotal Lyrical information, it serves its function, and then there is a final giving of the Chorus Refrain, and Verse, and a repeat of the final line, with a slight variation in Melody, a Coda, to end.

A lesson in structure, and an important lesson that structure is extremely flexible, that title line coming as an opening, as opposed to an ending line in each Verse, or not coming until a appearing in a Chorus after one or two Verses.

Listen to the Bridge;

Some—
day I’ll wish upon a star
and wake up where the clouds are far
behind- me,
where troubles melt like lemon drops,
away above the chimney tops.
That’s where-
you’ll find—- me. (Note the sustain on the word ‘find’ and Judy’s superlative execution of it.)

The Bridge having served its function, breaking the repetition, the ear now welcomes back the Musical Movement of the Verse, with new Lyrics to serve as Act III of the play, and end.

Somewhere-
O-ver The Rainbow,
blue birds fly.
Birds fly over the rainbow.
Why, then,
oh why can’t I?
(Instrumental Interlude)
(Coda)
If happy little bluebirds fly
beyond the rainbow
why, oh why- can’t- I-?

Why does it work? In my opinion, and in a word; Simplicity. Garland’s execution is superb, but having a Song written with such Melodic appeal, Lyrical whimsy, and visuals, constructed with simplicity, TO execute, is the fundamental and strategic factor. All that serves to overcome the oddity of having THE Hook/title opening, as opposed to closing, each Verse. It is a factor in making the Bridge work in structure where one might expect to be arriving at a Stanza-Type Chorus, and finding THE Hook there.

The Rhyme-Scheme of the Bridge is like Nursery Rhymes, ‘Little Miss Muffet, Sat on a tuffet, eating her curds and whey.’ The two lines Rhyme, and the third is left hanging, to be picked up in the next Verse, ‘Along came a spider, sat down beside her, and scared Miss Muffet away.’

star, far, behind me
drops, tops, find me

That clever variation serves the function of renewing listener interest, breaking the repetition of the Verse Movement. The Verses are straight Rhyme, ‘high, lullabye’, ‘blue, true’, and ‘fly, I’.

Yip Harburg (real name I think) was one of the composers. I forget the other. Ira Gershwin is credited with suggesting the last line as a way to end, which the composers were having trouble deciding on.

Yes, Harburg. If Gershwin wrote even a word for it I’d be mighty surprised, but I’ve been wrong before.

Not sure, if you or others here know it, Gary—-but this song, like most ‘30s theater or film songs, even pop songs, had a verse. In this case (Wizard of Oz) the verse was omitted, undoubtedly due to time constraints. (I hope we’re all on the same page about what the Tin Pan Alley era writers called a ‘verse’: NOT the same as a verse in current pop. It’s a set-up for the story line to come—-a sort of musical narration kind of preparation). Here’s Judy as a teen in a rare clip from the British Louella Parsons show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1lbHgdUI_s

Then what did they call what everyone else calls a verse? :)

Joel, I don’t think there’s anything British about Louella Parsons or her show.

 
     
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Gavin Sinclair Joined Dec 02, 2014
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Feb 05, 2018, 03:42 PM
Gavin Sinclair - 05 February 2018 03:08 PM
joel fass - 05 February 2018 07:15 AM
Gary E. Andrews - 04 February 2018 11:55 AM

Here’s July Garland singing “Somewhere Over The Rainbow”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSZxmZmBfnU

Note that THE Hook, the title line, is the first line in each Verse. Note also the simplicity. I think she, or the Songwriters, get it done in just over two minutes.

There is a musical, Melodic, completeness in each Verse. I’m not sure but I think the last note in each Verse is the same as the first note.

Note the completeness of thought in the long sentences that ARE the Verses.

Somewhere-
O-ver The Rainbow,
way up high,
there’s a-
land that I heard of
once in a lullabye.

Somewhere-
O-ver The Rainbow,
skies are blue,
and the-
dreams that you dare to dream (longer line than same line in Verse 1, just by a few syllables/notes)
really do come true. (Melody varies slightly from that of last line in Verse 1. It still works.)

(Now, rather than repeating that Musical Movement, now heard twice, comes a Change, which refreshes listener interest with a variant Melody, and cadence. Since I would call the opening line of each Verse a Refrain-Type Chorus, this next Movement constitutes a Bridge, a literal method of crossing from the Repetition of Verses over a point where the human attention span begins to break down. Brief, with pivotal Lyrical information, it serves its function, and then there is a final giving of the Chorus Refrain, and Verse, and a repeat of the final line, with a slight variation in Melody, a Coda, to end.

A lesson in structure, and an important lesson that structure is extremely flexible, that title line coming as an opening, as opposed to an ending line in each Verse, or not coming until a appearing in a Chorus after one or two Verses.

Listen to the Bridge;

Some—
day I’ll wish upon a star
and wake up where the clouds are far
behind- me,
where troubles melt like lemon drops,
away above the chimney tops.
That’s where-
you’ll find—- me. (Note the sustain on the word ‘find’ and Judy’s superlative execution of it.)

The Bridge having served its function, breaking the repetition, the ear now welcomes back the Musical Movement of the Verse, with new Lyrics to serve as Act III of the play, and end.

Somewhere-
O-ver The Rainbow,
blue birds fly.
Birds fly over the rainbow.
Why, then,
oh why can’t I?
(Instrumental Interlude)
(Coda)
If happy little bluebirds fly
beyond the rainbow
why, oh why- can’t- I-?

Why does it work? In my opinion, and in a word; Simplicity. Garland’s execution is superb, but having a Song written with such Melodic appeal, Lyrical whimsy, and visuals, constructed with simplicity, TO execute, is the fundamental and strategic factor. All that serves to overcome the oddity of having THE Hook/title opening, as opposed to closing, each Verse. It is a factor in making the Bridge work in structure where one might expect to be arriving at a Stanza-Type Chorus, and finding THE Hook there.

The Rhyme-Scheme of the Bridge is like Nursery Rhymes, ‘Little Miss Muffet, Sat on a tuffet, eating her curds and whey.’ The two lines Rhyme, and the third is left hanging, to be picked up in the next Verse, ‘Along came a spider, sat down beside her, and scared Miss Muffet away.’

star, far, behind me
drops, tops, find me

That clever variation serves the function of renewing listener interest, breaking the repetition of the Verse Movement. The Verses are straight Rhyme, ‘high, lullabye’, ‘blue, true’, and ‘fly, I’.

Yip Harburg (real name I think) was one of the composers. I forget the other. Ira Gershwin is credited with suggesting the last line as a way to end, which the composers were having trouble deciding on.

Yes, Harburg. If Gershwin wrote even a word for it I’d be mighty surprised, but I’ve been wrong before.

Not sure, if you or others here know it, Gary—-but this song, like most ‘30s theater or film songs, even pop songs, had a verse. In this case (Wizard of Oz) the verse was omitted, undoubtedly due to time constraints. (I hope we’re all on the same page about what the Tin Pan Alley era writers called a ‘verse’: NOT the same as a verse in current pop. It’s a set-up for the story line to come—-a sort of musical narration kind of preparation). Here’s Judy as a teen in a rare clip from the British Louella Parsons show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1lbHgdUI_s

Then what did they call what everyone else calls a verse? :)

Joel, I don’t think there’s anything British about Louella Parsons or her show.

I have no clue why anyone calls anything anything.

All I care is that someone calls ME—-and PAYS me once I show up.

Don’t know why I assumed Ms. Parsons was a Brit. Guess I’m mistaken. (But what a delight to hear the command of teenage Judy—-before the pressures drove her over the edge)...

‘Charlie Christian got me in a world of trouble’—-me

 
     
joel fass Joined Jun 03, 2017
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Feb 05, 2018, 03:49 PM
Gavin Sinclair - 05 February 2018 03:00 PM
joel fass - 05 February 2018 10:54 AM
Deacon - 04 February 2018 09:16 PM

... I wonder if you could sell the download with the cover art, lyrics, and song in video form at a reasonable price?

Best wishes,

Speak soon,

I wonder about the same thing, b/c I have my own small catalog for purchase.

If you can’t beat ‘em join ‘em——and MAYBE pay a fraction of your bills with your art…

I really don’t see why iTunes, Spotify, etc. aren’t doing this. You can create reviews at iTunes and create your “Artist’s Profile” on Spotify. It would be pretty easy for them to allow the artist or publisher to upload a virtual album cover - not just the cover art, but the whole vinyl record cover and sleeve experience with lyrics, liner notes, etc. That smell of a newly purchase LP might not be possible….yet :)

I wouldn’t give a penny to itunes—-as part of an ongoing lifetime protest against what that cold-hearted SOB Jobs did to the world. PLUS, there are these other pirates—-‘tune core’—-who tried to shake me down when I DID try to get on itunes, claiming they were THE way in. Told ‘em to jump in the lake of their choice.

There are ways to disseminate music w/o giving any $ to conniving corporate rats. We just have to research how to MAKE $ w/o spending any.

Someone mentioned CD Baby. I have a CD on there, but they can’t sell it b/c I haven’t ponied up composers rep fees for the songs—-too poor.

Can’t make this stuff up——or win for losin’...

‘Charlie Christian got me in a world of trouble’—-me

 
     
joel fass Joined Jun 03, 2017
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Feb 05, 2018, 09:00 PM

Quote: Joel Fass
Not sure, if you or others here know it, Gary—-but this song, like most ‘30s theater or film songs, even pop songs, had a verse. In this case (Wizard of Oz) the verse was omitted, undoubtedly due to time constraints. (I hope we’re all on the same page about what the Tin Pan Alley era writers called a ‘verse’: NOT the same as a verse in current pop. It’s a set-up for the story line to come—-a sort of musical narration kind of preparation).

Joel, I don’t know what you mean by ‘omitted the verse’. I consider each stanza commencing with “Somewhere Over The Rainbow to be a Verse, 1, 2, and 3. Could you explain the 1930’s difference? And we should all bear in mind this was likely a Song written to serve in a musical performed on stage, as opposed to simply for radio play or even in the movie. That intended use likely obeyed a few different strictures on style.

There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? http://www.garyeandrews.com

 
     
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Gary E. Andrews Joined Apr 12, 2005
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Feb 06, 2018, 03:19 AM

Just Another Point Of View….........
Question:: If the “Wizard of Oz” was never made into a movie would we be having this
conversation? Will we be lending as much credibility to Marilyn Manson or Lady GaGa
60 years from now?

 
     
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JAPOV Joined Jul 02, 2006
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Feb 06, 2018, 09:04 AM
Gary E. Andrews - 05 February 2018 09:00 PM

Quote: Joel Fass
Not sure, if you or others here know it, Gary—-but this song, like most ‘30s theater or film songs, even pop songs, had a verse. In this case (Wizard of Oz) the verse was omitted, undoubtedly due to time constraints. (I hope we’re all on the same page about what the Tin Pan Alley era writers called a ‘verse’: NOT the same as a verse in current pop. It’s a set-up for the story line to come—-a sort of musical narration kind of preparation).

Joel, I don’t know what you mean by ‘omitted the verse’. I consider each stanza commencing with “Somewhere Over The Rainbow to be a Verse, 1, 2, and 3. Could you explain the 1930’s difference? And we should all bear in mind this was likely a Song written to serve in a musical performed on stage, as opposed to simply for radio play or even in the movie. That intended use likely obeyed a few different strictures on style.

I already explained it—-in parentheses above.

Over the Rainbow was written for the movie (NOT the stage), but was so strong it became a hit—-as songs culled from the stage and film did then (and, naturally, composers hoped for this). My guess is that time constraints kept this verse out of the film. It happens (More I Cannot Wish You—-the wedding song sung by Brother Arvide to Sister Sarah on her wedding day in Guys and Dolls is a classic example. Fabulous song, too).

My review of the literature for my own playbook and study has turned up countless songs where I was ‘sleeping’ on the verses, i.e.: I’m Old Fashioned, Baby Won’t You Please Come Home—-so many.

For these theater songs, once they’re adopted by singers off the stage and become what we now call ‘standards’—-many times the song goes straight to the chorus. But some songs are hard to imagine w/o verses, i.e.: Lush Life, Stardust, Spring Can Really Hang You Up the Most. I’ve also read (and don’t disagree) where composers sort of knew their verses would likely be left out of non-stage or film renditions, and accordingly experimented on these verses—-probably sealing their fate and guaranteeing their being left out!

Alec Wilder, in his indispensable survey American Popular Song, chronicles, analyzes and comments yay, nay or indifferent on many songs, including verses wherever applicable. I think we all ought to have this on our shelves. (I’ve started, as an ongoing project that in all likelihood will take years to complete, a sort of update book, American Song Redux. It will cover the pop writers post-1950 that Wilder turned his nose up at, and writers he also left out for reasons I guess he took to the grave—-like Billy Strayhorn and Stephen Sondheim. As stated, Wilder’s book is a monumental scholarly achievement and we shouldn’t be w/o it—-but it’s time for some knucklehead like myself to update. Guess I have too much, er, ‘Time on My Hands’)...

[ Edited: 06 February 2018 09:11 AM by joel fass]

‘Charlie Christian got me in a world of trouble’—-me

 
     
joel fass Joined Jun 03, 2017
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Feb 06, 2018, 10:59 AM
joel fass - 05 February 2018 03:49 PM

I wouldn’t give a penny to itunes—-as part of an ongoing lifetime protest against what that cold-hearted SOB Jobs did to the world. PLUS, there are these other pirates—-‘tune core’—-who tried to shake me down when I DID try to get on itunes, claiming they were THE way in. Told ‘em to jump in the lake of their choice.

There are ways to disseminate music w/o giving any $ to conniving corporate rats. We just have to research how to MAKE $ w/o spending any.

Someone mentioned CD Baby. I have a CD on there, but they can’t sell it b/c I haven’t ponied up composers rep fees for the songs—-too poor.

Can’t make this stuff up——or win for losin’...

I’m no fan of Apple either. As for Tunecore, they are just one of an increasing number of distributors who can get your stuff on iTunes and other digital outlets. You do need a distributor, but it doesn’t have to be them. I use Amuse, who do it for free.

 
     
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Gavin Sinclair Joined Dec 02, 2014
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Feb 06, 2018, 07:42 PM
Gavin Sinclair - 06 February 2018 10:59 AM
joel fass - 05 February 2018 03:49 PM

I wouldn’t give a penny to itunes—-as part of an ongoing lifetime protest against what that cold-hearted SOB Jobs did to the world. PLUS, there are these other pirates—-‘tune core’—-who tried to shake me down when I DID try to get on itunes, claiming they were THE way in. Told ‘em to jump in the lake of their choice.

There are ways to disseminate music w/o giving any $ to conniving corporate rats. We just have to research how to MAKE $ w/o spending any.

Someone mentioned CD Baby. I have a CD on there, but they can’t sell it b/c I haven’t ponied up composers rep fees for the songs—-too poor.

Can’t make this stuff up——or win for losin’...

I’m no fan of Apple either. As for Tunecore, they are just one of an increasing number of distributors who can get your stuff on iTunes and other digital outlets. You do need a distributor, but it doesn’t have to be them. I use Amuse, who do it for free.

Tell us more about Amuse?

‘Charlie Christian got me in a world of trouble’—-me

 
     
joel fass Joined Jun 03, 2017
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Feb 06, 2018, 08:01 PM

I already did, Joel :)

http://www.songwriter101.com/forums/viewthread/94892/

The discussion veered off into questions about copyright, but comes back to the original topic near the end. There’s also a link to a really useful comparison of distributors.

Uploading to Amuse is pretty painless. You do it by an app on your phone, after first uploading the track and cover art to Dropbox. (I did that from my laptop). Then, with the Dropbox app installed on your phone, you just follow a few really simple steps and you’re done. You can then use the app to see how many users, streams and followers you have and how much you have earned from the various outlets.

Their website is https://amuse.io/

 
     
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Gavin Sinclair Joined Dec 02, 2014
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Feb 07, 2018, 04:32 PM
Gavin Sinclair - 06 February 2018 08:01 PM

Uploading to Amuse is pretty painless. You do it by an app on your phone, after first uploading the track and cover art to Dropbox. (I did that from my laptop). Then, with the Dropbox app installed on your phone, you just follow a few really simple steps and you’re done. You can then use the app to see how many users, streams and followers you have and how much you have earned from the various outlets.

Their website is https://amuse.io/

Painless to YOU, maybe. I hate anything and everything digital, don’t know beans about ‘apps’—-or care to. Had a flip phone for 3 years and did just hunky dory. Only reason I changed was a free Obamaphone w/$15/mo unlimited service. But when I called to tell them I wanted a flip again b/c the android was unwieldy and too much trouble to use the guy said they only carry androids now. So I’m stuck w/bells and whistles I’ll never use or understand—-and can’t even get the phone icon to appear on the start menu.

Grrrr!!

They force unneeded techno toys on people b/c of their research/marketing monkeys’ reports, and b/c 99% of the sheep accept whatever they’re handed w/o protest. All I need on the damn thing: phone, text (ONLY for addresses, or what I can’t immediately write down) and a GPS—-the only app I need.

Can I do it from a laptop? I hate those a LITTLE less…

[ Edited: 07 February 2018 04:38 PM by joel fass]

‘Charlie Christian got me in a world of trouble’—-me

 
     
joel fass Joined Jun 03, 2017
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Feb 07, 2018, 04:49 PM

Joel, they still make flip phones for old fogies like us. I don’t use most of the bells and whistles on my iphone, which I inherited from my daughter, but it is useful for my work - email on the go, etc and a few other things - like teaching myself Portuguese :)

Do you have or know any kids who could download the app and set it up for you? It would take them about 3 minutes. Once it’s up and running, it’s really, really easy. Or use one of the other services. They are all laptop oriented, I think. But they’re not free.

 
     
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Gavin Sinclair Joined Dec 02, 2014
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Feb 07, 2018, 05:07 PM
Gavin Sinclair - 07 February 2018 04:49 PM

Joel, they still make flip phones for old fogies like us. I don’t use most of the bells and whistles on my iphone, which I inherited from my daughter, but it is useful for my work - email on the go, etc and a few other things - like teaching myself Portuguese :)

Do you have or know any kids who could download the app and set it up for you? It would take them about 3 minutes. Once it’s up and running, it’s really, really easy. Or use one of the other services. They are all laptop oriented, I think. But they’re not free.

I COULD ask a random kid.

If they deign to take out the earbuds, and don’t immediately strangle me for having the temerity to break their techno toy reverie by looking up for the first time that day——I MIGHT just have a shot (;

‘Charlie Christian got me in a world of trouble’—-me

 
     
joel fass Joined Jun 03, 2017
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